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Poster: Samizdat Date: Dec 16, 2009 7:57pm
Forum: etree Subject: UPDATE 2009-12-16 Blasphemous Creation Link Fixed

UPDATE 2009-05-10 Vince Mira Live at KEXP on 2009-04-29

== 2008-11-14 UPDATE == MBAR Live from KEXP FM Seattle studios on 2008-11-12

2008-10-03 -- Part B (The second half of the evening's performance of 2006-05-23 Lugano Festival Palazzo dei Congressi) is now in the Archive).

>2008-09-08 --
Brahms Show Fixed

Three simple steps to creating your own "feature for streaming the lossless files:"

1. Encode your original .wav format show to the ogg-FLAC (lossless) format (using FLAC Frontend), and to the FLAC format (using one of any number of encoding and/or converting programs [including FLAC Frontend] -- or if you're a CLI bug, using simple commands).

2. On the bottom of your "Edit item" page, select "Allow only non-lossy derivatives for files in this item," hit "Submit" button, and wait a few minutes for the show's details page to update.

3.
a) Using the ogg-FLAC (.oga) lossless file download links on your show's details page, create an m3u file.
b) Upload the m3u file to the ftp server.
c) Go back to your "Edit item" page and use the drop-down corresponding to the m3u file and choose the "VBR M3U" option.
d) Use the "Stream" link in your VLC player to listen losslessly to your show -- what I like to call "learn before you burn."

Example show featuring lossless "Stream" link: Blasphemous Creation - Shadows of Evil

Any questions? Here's the place to post 'em!

This post was modified by Samizdat on 2009-12-17 03:57:02

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Poster: greenone Date: May 10, 2009 4:55pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: UPDATE 2009-05-10 Vince Mira Live at KEXP on 2009-04-29 -- Create Your Own `Feature for Streaming the Lossless`

Can you explain why you keep bumping this thread to the top? It doesn't appear you've changed the procedure any, but that you're linking to a new recording.

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Poster: Samizdat Date: Jun 11, 2009 9:10am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: UPDATE 2009-05-10 Vince Mira Live at KEXP on 2009-04-29 -- Create Your Own `Feature for Streaming the Lossless`

I cop to the charge. And now, rather than toot my own horn further, I'll link you to an excellent talk by Prof. V. Viswanadham on "Becoming Better," presented to participants of a Personality Development Programme at Vivekananda Institute of Human Excellence, Ramakrishna Math, Hyderabad:

Link to "Becoming Better."

Why doesn't excellent material like this make "Staff Picks" more often?

This post was modified by Samizdat on 2009-06-11 16:10:46

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Poster: Samizdat Date: Aug 22, 2008 9:11pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Create Your Own `Feature for Streaming the Lossless`

Note:
For tradition's sake (and for the sake of retaining replay gain) you should upload the FLAC files, but for web-streaming purposes, FLACs will jam your player. Therefore, in addition to uploading your FLAC files, create (using FLAC Frontend) and upload ogg-FLAC files, which will NOT, even if large, jam your player when web-streamed. If you're a Linux command line bug, you can encode using simple command and option strings.*

See the Blasphemous Creation show in parent post for a clearer picture of the process.

* Linux users or more command-line-oriented Windows users may want to use the following tutorial instead: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=65434.

This post was modified by Samizdat on 2008-08-23 04:11:36

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Poster: Diana Hamilton Date: Aug 14, 2008 5:04am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Create Your Own `Feature for Streaming the Lossless`

Very intriguing! Can you give a layman's description of ogg-flac? I see this http://flac.sourceforge.net/ogg_mapping.html and I think it's saying, like you are, that with an ogg tweak you can stream flacs, whereas it hasn't been feasible to web-stream "regular" flacs. Did I get that right?

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Poster: Samizdat Date: Sep 8, 2008 10:23pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Create Your Own `Feature for Streaming the Lossless`

Diana:

Ogg-FLAC is a FLAC stream within an ogg container. FLAC is itself a container file, but not coded well to web-stream -- whereas even large ogg-FLAC files web-stream (damn, I dig that verbal construction) very reliably.
You might get away with web-streaming a small or medium-sized FLAC for a few minutes at most, but eventually your player will seize up, and that's all she wrote.

So yes, you got it exactly right, and I credit to you the chain of events leading to my lossless love affair. A couple years back or so, you pointed out to me a simple fact which should have been logically obvious: no quality increase is possible by upconverting (for instance, from 320 kbps .mp3 to FLAC). Once a show's (or whatever audio sample's) lossless virginity's violated, that audio sample is lossy till the end of time. You can mask it, and sometimes it's very difficult to detect. Let's say we take a 2L (the excellent Norwegian recording label) 8-track (not the dinosaur we old farts used to play in the car) surround .wav and violate it down to 320 kbps mp3. If we then upconvert to FLAC or some other "lossless" format, while we may fool the eye with all sorts of tweaks to fake a good frequency analysis and spectral view, it's more difficult to fool a good ear. For one thing, the volume is drastically cut.

Samizdat

This post was modified by Samizdat on 2008-09-09 05:23:25

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Poster: xtifr Date: Aug 28, 2008 12:47pm
Forum: etree Subject: raw FLAC streams just fine for me


"You might get away with web-streaming a small or medium-sized FLAC for a few tens of seconds, but eventually your player will seize up, and that's all she wrote."


As they say on Wikipedia: citation needed. Who told you that?

The FLAC documentation suggests that Web streaming was one of their design criteria, and I just streamed 10 minutes of raw FLAC with absolutely no problem (since I'm now at work and have enough bandwidth to stream FLAC).

If your player seizes up after a few tens of seconds, I would be more inclined to think it's a bug in your player or possibly your OS. (Vista in particular is notorious for having problems with "unauthorized" media sources; I use Linux myself.)

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Poster: Samizdat Date: Mar 16, 2009 1:09pm
Forum: etree Subject: Tutorial Amended - Update for 2008-09-07


Windows and Linux users: Create Your Own `Feature for Streaming the Lossless`

Stay tuned for updates.


2008-10-03 -- Part B (The second half of the evening's performance of 2006-05-23 Lugano Festival Palazzo dei Congressi) is now in the Archive).

2008-09-08 --
Brahms Show Fixed

2008-09-07 -- Tutorial Amended

2008-09-04 -- Brahms at the 2006 Lugano Festival, Switzerland

2008-08-27 -- Stay tuned here for Euroradio Summer Festival concerts in streaming ogg-FLAC format!

2008-08-26 Update -- the more command-line-oriented Windows and/or Linux user
may want to use the (also regularly updated) alternative tutorial.

(OP edited for clarity)
Three simple steps to creating your own "feature for streaming the lossless files" (on the Internet Archive):


1. Encoding & Uploading -- FLAC Frontend users note: before encoding to ogg-FLAC you must disable replay gain. For encoding to FLAC, by all means, use replay gain (if you must).

a) Encode your original .wav format audio show to the ogg-FLAC (lossless) format (using FLAC Frontend), and to the FLAC format (using one of any number of encoding and/or converting programs [including FLAC Frontend] -- or if you're a CLI bug, using simple commands).

b) Upload your show to the Internet Archive's "Open Source Audio" (or to the "Live Music Archive)."

2. Deriving
At left of the details page of your show, hit the "Edit item" link, whereupon you will see the "Metadata editor," and near the bottom of the page, select "Allow only non-lossy derivatives for files in this item." Hit "Submit," then wait for update, which takes a few minutes.

3. Creating the Stream

a)
Using the ogg-FLAC (.oga) file download links on your show's details page, create an m3u file.

b) Upload the m3u file to the ftp server: (hit "Edit item" again, giving you the "Metadata editor" page, where you will hit "Item Manager," then on the Item Manager page hit "checkout -- edit item's files (non XML)."

c) Go back to the Metadata editor page and use the "Format" drop-down corresponding to the m3u file and select
"VBR M3U." Hit "Submit" button at bottom of page -- again, the update takes a few minutes.

d) Once your details page updates, find the new (VBR M3U) "Stream" link. Use this URL
in your VLC media player to listen losslessly to your show -- what I like to call "learn before you burn."


Example show featuring lossless "Stream" link: Blasphemous Creation - Shadows of Evil



Any questions? Here's the place to post 'em!


Stay tuned for updates.



This post was modified by Samizdat on 2009-03-16 20:09:54

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Poster: JustinMusic Date: Aug 22, 2008 2:58pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Create Your Own `Feature for Streaming the Lossless`

I get a runtime error when I encode the .WAV file?

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Poster: Samizdat Date: Aug 27, 2008 6:39am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Create Your Own `Feature for Streaming the Lossless`

JustinMusic: post a reply including the code you entered when encoding, or describe the GUI procedure you used to encode.
Then copy the command line error output, or copy the GUI error message and/or take a snapshot of the GUI error screen, and I'll see what I can do to help you.

This post was modified by Samizdat on 2008-08-27 13:39:54

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Poster: xtifr Date: Aug 28, 2008 2:39am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Create Your Own `Feature for Streaming the Lossless`

Flac is designed to be streamed--you don't need the Ogg wrapper. Although Ogg-flac is a standard version of Ogg, it's really not necessary, and, as far as I've been able to determine, doesn't really buy you anything over plain Flac. Flac has all the meta-data support that Ogg does. In fact, it uses the same meta-data scheme that Ogg does. (Which, IMO, is as much better than id3 as Flac and even Ogg Vorbis are than mp3.)

Anyway, you need more bandwidth than I have available at home to stream Flac, whether in an Ogg container or not. But when I tried it once, it nearly worked. (I should try it from work one of these days, where I have bandwidth to spare.)

From "About Flac" http://flac.sourceforge.net/features.html

"Streamable: Each FLAC frame contains enough data to decode that frame. FLAC does not even rely on previous or following frames. FLAC uses sync codes and CRCs (similar to MPEG and other formats), which, along with framing, allow decoders to pick up in the middle of a stream with a minimum of delay."

This post was modified by xtifr on 2008-08-28 09:39:53

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Poster: Samizdat Date: Sep 8, 2008 8:04am
Forum: etree Subject: 2008-09-08 == Brahms Show Fixed == -- Re: Create Your Own `Feature for Streaming the Lossless`

2008-09-08 -- == Brahms Show Fixed ==


I stand by my tutorial.

When you get to the office, you'll find your bandwidth-bestowed player will choke on the FLAC show set a few minutes at most into the test.

But by all means, run the test, and when you've had enough, give the trusty ogg-FLAC format a try.

I thank you for causing me to re-evaluate my estimate of the time-to-failure from "a few tens of seconds" to "a few minutes at most." It was a few moons back when I conducted the tests, whose results basically boiled down to: the larger the .flac, the faster the failure. Contrast .oga, who didn't give a hoot how heavy she was; she still finished the marathon. If in fact you can prove that a series of small .flac files can run indefinitely without failure, then strictly speaking, my tutorial is mistaken. On the other hand, I would not describe a web-streaming format depending upon small file size as a successful one. Eventually the ogg-FLAC revolution will make sets consisting of large single files commonplace.

As a matter of fact, when I update this reply in a few hours,* I will provide a link to a show whose media component consists of a .flac file and an .oga file, 240 MB each. The show is from the 2006 Lugano Festival featuring a striking ménage: Brahms, conductor Sakari Oramo, and violin virtuosa Leila Stefanowicz, in the Tragic Overture in D Minor, Op. 81.

Tell me something, xtifr: on which of the two files would you put your money?


* Turns out it's been more like a few days to sort out this particular FLAC encoding, but I think you'll find the results satisfactory:

2008-09-04 -- Brahms at the 2006 Lugano Festival, Switzerland

This post was modified by Samizdat on 2008-09-08 15:04:54

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Poster: xtifr Date: Aug 29, 2008 2:53pm
Forum: etree Subject: Flac holding its own

I'm interested to see the link, but my money's on FLAC. I know some of the people who were involved with FLAC development, and their work is solid, and they say it should work, and from what I know (a fair amount) about Ogg, there's absolutely no reason why the wrapper should make an appreciable difference in any cases.

I'm currently 6:30 into a 33 minute FLAC from here at the Archive. I'll report back when it either finishes or flakes out. But my money is on the former.

Later: ok, I've just spent an enjoyable half-hour-plus listening to an entertaining medley: http://www.archive.org/download/rad2000-04-02.flac16/rad2000-04-02d1t03.flac is 175MB. Is that big enough?

I had absolutely no problems with playback at all. At the 32 minute mark, I paused, because resuming from a pause is something that will break with formats not designed for web streaming. When I resumed, the music started right back up (and my network activity monitor lit up again, showing that the music was actually streaming, rather than being held in a local cache or something).

How big was our wager? Because I'm pretty sure I just won. Pay me when you can. :)

At this point, I'd have to say that all the available evidence suggests that the problems you had streaming FLAC "a few moons back" were in your setup or the software you used, rather than anything inherent with FLAC, which should and does stream just fine.

This post was modified by xtifr on 2008-08-29 21:53:44

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Poster: Samizdat Date: Sep 8, 2008 8:39am
Forum: etree Subject: == 2008-09-08 == Brahms Show Fixed == *Still* Stand by My Tutorial

2008-09-08 - Brahms Show Fixed

I still stand by my tutorial -- been busy, though, trying to figure out odd FLAC file behavior. The Euroradio concert herein linked had a sample rate of 48 KHz, with which several media players I tried had no idea what to do. I resampled the 48 KHz FLAC file to 44.1 KHz, which seemed to solve the compatibility problem, and in addition rendered a truer representation of the performance. Mind you, I'm no music theorist, but to my ear, the 48 KHz version is a bit jaunty for a work written in a minor key:*

Brahms - Tragic Overture in D Minor, Op. 81 (plus Stravinsky's Petrushka and a piece by Mendelssohn).

* The original 48 KHz file temporarily remains in the item folder, but as it's strictly a test file, there is no corresponding checksum file.

This post was modified by Samizdat on 2008-09-08 15:39:41

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Poster: Samizdat Date: Sep 8, 2008 8:10am
Forum: etree Subject: Tutorial Amended -- 2008-09-08 Update == Brahms Show Fixed ==

2008-09-08 -- ==Brahms Show Fixed ==

One of the premises of the parent post, which is that the ogg-FLAC file/format is the way to "stream the lossless files" (from the Internet Archive), is evidently mistaken. As far as I now understand the ogg-FLAC file/format for Web-streaming purposes, some players in some situations do not support FLAC but do support ogg-FLAC. The converse is probably also true, as ogg-FLAC is still relatively new.

This post was modified by Samizdat on 2008-09-08 15:10:33

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Poster: xtifr Date: Sep 8, 2008 2:01pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Tutorial Amended -- 2008-09-08 Update == Brahms Show Fixed ==

Nothing wrong with your tutorial that I can see--but I don't believe that Ogg-Flac is intended as "the" way to stream lossless audio. From what I've been able to determine, the point of Ogg-Flac is not to be a pure audio format, but to allow the use of Flac in multimedia presentations, i.e. (mainly) coupled with Theora. Theora is normally coupled with Vorbis in an Ogg container, but Theora+Flac could be really nice for concert videos. Maybe with a separate channel using Speex for 'directors commentary" or something similar. :)

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Poster: Samizdat Date: Sep 15, 2008 10:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Tutorial Amended -- 2008-09-08 Update == Brahms Show Fixed ==

Thanks for holding my feet to the fire, xtifr. It's more important to get it right than be right. (As it turns out, [in Linux Ubuntu, anyway] the original Brahms 48 KHz FLAC file Web-streams perfectly in a nifty little player called Audacious). That's 49:39 of playback in a single 240 MB FLAC file -- impressive. Unfortunately, Audacious is one of those players which doesn't support ogg-FLAC -- at least not out-of-the-box.

Expanding on your mention of Theora -- using Linux Ubuntu and the screencasting app recordMyDesktop, I can combine video and audio, writing the output as Ogg Theora with a .ogg extension. Whether recordMyDesktop can combine lossless audio and video or not I don't know. Considering for instance the stealthy MPEG audio Bartok Radio Budapest uses occasionally, sniffing out lossy-sourced audio is hard enough. I can only imagine what a limited PC and some patchwork processing tools can do video-wise, in ferreting out lossy-sourced material.

This post was modified by Samizdat on 2008-09-15 17:46:15

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Poster: Arrond_Wolf Date: Oct 20, 2008 12:13pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Tutorial Amended -- 2008-09-08 Update == Brahms Show Fixed ==

This is a fairly absurd discourse.
Hypothetically,
1) a large enough out-going bandwidth from the files source 2) a large enough in-coming bandwidth to allow for real-time processing of a FLAC codec
you can stream any type or size media file with a media player that supports streaming FLAC...not ogg-FLAC.

1st- I tried to make an *.m3u by adding the url for a FLAC file in a new playlist in Winamp.
No Go.
2nd try- Foobar2000 v.0.9.5.3. Created a new playlist using FLAC download links from LMA. Success.

As soon as my current file transfers finish, I'll upload an *.m3u playlist that contains links to set 1 FLACs from http://www.archive.org/details/um2008-10-17.mk012.flac16.

here's the link:http://www.1424multimediastuidos.com/Music/Umphreys_McGee/um2008-10-17.mk012.set1.m3u

It worked when i made a new playlist and open the location as the url above and it streams fines with zero lag.

Keep It Greasy,
Paul Staats